Need A Few Opinions. Wall Of Text Ahead.

[Von]

Before anyone comments I'd like to say; Yes, it's fairly generic. I'd also like to add, I've been using Scizor since GSC, not just 'cause he's picked up Bullet Punch in Platinum.

Also EVs are listed as HP/Atk/Def/Spe/SpA/SpD

Heatran @ Shuca Berry
Flash Fire
Naive 6/0/0/252/252/0
-Stealth Rock
-Fire Blast
-Earth Power
-Explosion

Standard suicide lead, the Shuca berry is to make sure he gets his rocks off (sorry bad joke) and to give me the best chance of being able to keep him around to soak at least one of the fire attacks my team is guaranteed to attract.


Replacing Forretress
Flygon @ Choice Band
Levitate
Adamant - 80HP / 252 Atk / 176 Spe
(HP and Spe EVs depend upon IVs, want to reach 280 speed and the remainder will go into HP)
-Earthquake
-Outrage
-Fire Punch
-U-Turn


Replaced
Forretress @ Shed Shell
Sturdy
Relaxed 252/112/144/0/0/0 w/ Spe IV of 2
-Toxic Spikes
-Gyro Ball
-Rapid Spin
-Explosion

Again, pretty standard set. My spiker/spinner, has explosion for if I cbf dealing with a specific threat, or I'm probably going to die anyway. And Gyro Ball on such a slow Pokemon + STAB actually does some alright damage. Especially to Weavile. Shed Shell is there specifically for Magnezone, but you've already figured that out.
/Replaced


Blissey @ Leftovers
Natural Cure
Calm 0/0/252/0/80/176
-Wish
-Softboiled
-Flamethrower
-Toxic

Another fairly standard set. The EV spread here may seem like overkill for SpD, but it allows Bliss to take a Crit from Specs Modest Lucario's Aura Sphere, and makes non-crit a 3HKO. And despite being walled by Heatran completely, and to a lesser extent Empoleon/Tentacruel, Modest Specs FF'd Heatran has to roll almost Maximum damage (twice) to 2HKO, so Bliss is capable of PP stalling Heatran out of it's fire moves. Needless to say Empoleon and Tentacruel aren't getting through. I took Flamethrower (instead of IB/TB) to be a counterpoint to Toxic and to stop Scizor using Bliss as setup bait, it's an acceptable deterrent to Steels it can't poison and stall out.


Scizor @ Life Orb
Technician
Adamant 32/252/0/224/0/0
-Bullet Punch
-Brick Break
-X-Scissor
-Swords Dance

This one's obvious, BP + Technician + STAB + LO becomes a stupidly strong priority attack. 224 Spe makes him fast enough to outspeed Adamant max Spe TTar (discounting 31 Spe IV TTars >.>) and OHKO with a Brick Break, if I haven't had a chance to Dance yet. I know Scizor is walled by Gyarados, but there's not much that can be done about that, without messing up his other coverage.


Gyarados @ Leftovers
Intimidate
Adamant 156/108/100/144/0/0
-Waterfall
-Stone Edge
-Dragon Dance
-Taunt

A bulkier spread on Gyarados, his purpose is to switch into a Fire/Fighting attack meant for one of my other Pokemon, (preferably a physical one, but beggars can't be choosers), DDance on the switch that he causes about 50% of the time, then Taunt/KO the Phazer/Counter that switches in. He's usually fairly effective, if pretty common.


Magnezone @ Leftovers
Magnet Pull
Modest 172/0/0/84/252/0
-Thunderbolt
-Hidden Power (Ice)
-Substitute
-Magnet Rise

Standard Steel killer, as well as providing some well needed type coverage, and he makes a good cover for Gyarados, being able to switch into any nasty electric attacks. The Spe EVs are enough to outrun 0 Spe Skarmory, and the HP EVs just make him a little healthier.


Now before anyone points out the stunningly obvious, yes I have a large Fire/Fighting weakness, but it's there to give me an opening to bring in Gyarados, force a switch, and sweep. Though I do think it's possibly a little bit too prevalent. I have been considering ditching Forry for another physically bulky(ish) pokemon that can switch into fire/fighting attacks as well as spike or spin. I've also considered Starmie (can switch into both to a certain extent, can spin and can zap things pretty effectively), Salamence (again can switch into both, though no spinning/spiking and a stealth rock weakness, also I'm SO over Salamence), Latias (can switch into both, avoids spikes, and is bulky, albeit on the special side) and Cresselia (can switch into Fighting and has great defenses). So what I'm asking is essentially, what do you guys think, and are there any pokemon I'm overlooking who could replace Forry easily, or are there any other glaring problems with my team?

[Ballade]

Suggestions in bold, but don't ever list the EVs the way you have them again. Just put them like every one else does, that way we don't need to cross-reference stuff just to figure out what you're talking about.

Originally Posted by Von

Heatran @ Shuca Berry
Flash Fire
Naive 6/0/0/252/252/0
-Stealth Rock
-Fire Blast
-Earth Power
-Explosion

It doesn't seem like a typical suicide lead, but I guess it could work. It's buffed enough to withstand just about any attack, so I guess it could work.


Forretress @ Shed Shell
Sturdy
Relaxed 252/112/144/0/0/0 w/ Spe IV of 2
-Toxic Spikes
-Gyro Ball
-Rapid Spin
-Explosion

Get rid of Toxic Spikes for Spikes. The reason is, Toxic Spikes not only has the cons of Spikes, but it's instantly gotten rid of the moment a Poison pokemon walks in.


Blissey @ Leftovers
Natural Cure
Calm 0/0/252/0/80/176
-Wish
-Softboiled
-Flamethrower
-Toxic

Make the nature Bold and have 252 EVs in HP and Def. The reason is, that's the ONLY way Blissey is going to survive a physical hit. You may want to make Softboiled something like Heal Bell or Aromatherapy or whatever so that it can heal your team rather than act as a counter to non-special attacks.


Scizor @ Life Orb
Technician
Adamant 32/252/0/224/0/0
-Bullet Punch
-Brick Break
-X-Scissor
-Swords Dance

Standard Scizor


Gyarados @ Leftovers
Intimidate
Adamant 156/108/100/144/0/0
-Waterfall
-Stone Edge
-Dragon Dance
-Taunt

It SEEMS like a good idea, but you also have to play your cards right and hope that there isn't a surprise Electric Attack used on you (Infernape can learn T-Punch so don't be surprised if it stays in to knock you out cold).


Magnezone @ Leftovers
Magnet Pull
Modest 172/0/0/84/252/0
-Thunderbolt
-Hidden Power (Ice)
-Substitute
-Magnet Rise

Personally I think Sub+Magnet Rise on Magnezone is useless. It's too slow to put it up, even with Sub, and there ARE other attacks to use against it. Plus, it also gets rid of it's Magnet Pull, allowing Steel types to run out scared.


Now before anyone points out the stunningly obvious, yes I have a large Fire/Fighting weakness, but it's there to give me an opening to bring in Gyarados, force a switch, and sweep. Though I do think it's possibly a little bit too prevalent. I have been considering ditching Forry for another physically bulky(ish) pokemon that can switch into fire/fighting attacks as well as spike or spin. I've also considered Starmie (can switch into both to a certain extent, can spin and can zap things pretty effectively), Salamence (again can switch into both, though no spinning/spiking and a stealth rock weakness, also I'm SO over Salamence), Latias (can switch into both, avoids spikes, and is bulky, albeit on the special side) and Cresselia (can switch into Fighting and has great defenses). So what I'm asking is essentially, what do you guys think, and are there any pokemon I'm overlooking who could replace Forry easily, or are there any other glaring problems with my team?

The main problem with your little strategy is, you're assuming Gyarados is going to be able to take all of the attacks, you have a VERY large weakness to Fire and Fighting and technically ground (2 4x to Ground and 2 4x to Fire). Gyarados isn't going to be able to handle those attacks, and there is the problem of it being weak to Rock attacks as well. You also don't have HP Fire on Magnezone, and it's purpose in your team is to be the Steel-killer. Honestly, get rid of Forretress, Blissey, and Magnezone for a couple other choice replacements (and if you put in Starmie or Tentacruel, then get rid of Gyarados as well). Lead Heatran is fine, Scizor is fine, but that's about it. As to what to replace everyone else with, it depends.

[Von]

Originally Posted by Ballade

Suggestions in bold, but don't ever list the EVs the way you have them again. Just put them like every one else does, that way we don't need to cross-reference stuff just to figure out what you're talking about.

Apologies for not listing EVs the way everyone else does, I didn't realise listing them by the order they're stored would be such an issue, I've always listed stats in that order :(. Won't do it again.

Heatran:
It doesn't seem like a typical suicide lead, but I guess it could work. It's buffed enough to withstand just about any attack, so I guess it could work.

Yeah he's probably not really all that standard in that he doesn't actually need to follow up on the suicide part as often as I was expecting when I first started using him. Glad you like him btw.

Forretress:
Get rid of Toxic Spikes for Spikes. The reason is, Toxic Spikes not only has the cons of Spikes, but it's instantly gotten rid of the moment a Poison pokemon walks in.

That's a good point, and something I'd completely forgotten about, the only reason I was using TSpikes instead of Regular is that my team doesn't have a lot of status effects flying around. But if Forry keeps his spot on the team, I'll definitely replace it with regular spikes.

Blissey:
Make the nature Bold and have 252 EVs in HP and Def. The reason is, that's the ONLY way Blissey is going to survive a physical hit. You may want to make Softboiled something like Heal Bell or Aromatherapy or whatever so that it can heal your team rather than act as a counter to non-special attacks.

In all honesty, Blissey isn't there to wall Physical hits. The given EVs and nature guarantee that she can't be OHKO by any special attack, and in the majority of cases it will take 3 hits. That's why she's there, to stop SpA threats. By putting in 252 more HP EVs I lose the ability to completely wall Special just so that she can take 63 more dmg from Physical hits when she already has ~645 HP? The point about softboiled is a good one though, and it did take me a long time to decide to use it over either aromatherapy or protect. I eventually decided to use it because 16PP on Wish just never seemed like it would be enough, honestly now I can say I rarely run out of Wish PP, though I don't really feel like I've been in a situation where having AT or Protect would have been been definitely more useful. That and having to rely solely on Wish for healing does open you up to the possibility of not being able to keep Bliss in long enough to heal, especially with entry hazards around.

Scizor:
Standard Scizor

Yep.

Gyarados:
It SEEMS like a good idea, but you also have to play your cards right and hope that there isn't a surprise Electric Attack used on you (Infernape can learn T-Punch so don't be surprised if it stays in to knock you out cold).

Yeah, so far my prediction has been fairly on the mark, but I've also played him fairly safe. Though despite Infernape being able to learn TPunch I don't think I've ever even seen it on him. Most people seem to prefer MixApe or Leading with him lately. That said he's also far more likely to be carrying Stone Edge than TPunch, which is probably more concerning. Though if I come in on a Close Combat it doesn't matter, short of a Stone Edge crit.

Magnezone:
Personally I think Sub+Magnet Rise on Magnezone is useless. It's too slow to put it up, even with Sub, and there ARE other attacks to use against it. Plus, it also gets rid of it's Magnet Pull, allowing Steel types to run out scared.

I'm well aware of Magnezone's speed deficiencies, and I don't plan to send him into a possible EQ carrying, non-choiced Steel type that's faster than him. I'm not quite as stupid as I look. :P
Regarding the effectiveness of Magnet Rise / Sub, yes Magnet Rise allows Steel Types to switch out, but it also means that if they choose to, I get a free Sub off which guarantees me 1 free attack (with the coverage of Bolt/Beam) against their counter before I need to switch, or a free Thunderbolt depending on what I know about their team.
All that said, I have been considering switching Magnezone for something else, and with Gyarados there, Electivire has been floating around as a possible choice, due to the likelihood of being able to score a free motor-drive.

The main problem with your little strategy is, you're assuming Gyarados is going to be able to take all of the attacks

This is why he's running a bulky EV spread with leftovers, and in the majority of cases I'm not going to be switching him into things that are likely to be carrying an electric attack. Though nasty surprises are something I'm not going to like, but you run that risk with almost any team.

You have a VERY large weakness to Fire and Fighting and technically ground (2 4x to Ground and 2 4x to Fire). Gyarados isn't going to be able to handle those attacks, and there is the problem of it being weak to Rock attacks as well.

Yeah, I am well aware of his Rock/Stealth Rock weakness which does mean I can't be swapping him into attacks too often. It's also one of the reasons I wanted to possibly replace Forry, as I'd like to be able to swap something other than Magnezone into a rock attack. I had been considering Hippowdon instead of Forry, but his Sandstorm is going to cancel out Blissey and Gyarados' Leftovers, though he would pretty much be the perfect replacement otherwise. I've also been considering Cresselia, but the problem there is finding one with the right nature/acceptable IVs and it's a lot easier to breed a Hippo than catch the Moon.

You also don't have HP Fire on Magnezone, and it's purpose in your team is to be the Steel-killer.

Now this is a comment I really don't understand. If you do the maths, a STAB Thunderbolt does more damage to a straight steel type than a MAX Power HP Fire. (95*1.5=142.5 > 70*2=140) and how many people have a Pokemon with IVs that give a 70 BP HP (odds are (16/31)^6, or ~2%). The only Steel types HP Fire hits harder than Thunderbolt are Magnezone/Steelix/Forretress/Scizor, whereas HP Ice is a throwback to Bolt/Beam and gives me very good coverage.

Honestly, get rid of Forretress, Blissey, and Magnezone for a couple other choice replacements (and if you put in Starmie or Tentacruel, then get rid of Gyarados as well). Lead Heatran is fine, Scizor is fine, but that's about it. As to what to replace everyone else with, it depends.

To be blunt, Bliss is staying, I need the Special walling, and I spent a fair bit of time IV breeding the stupid thing. I agree that Forry can, and probably should, go. And Magnezone/Heatran together does present an irritating ground weakness, though Shuca + Magnet Rise has so far proved an acceptable temporary stop against the almost omni-present Earthquake. Though I have been on the verge of replacing Zone with something, Zapdos/Electivire did briefly occur to me as replacements, but Zapdos suffers from the same selection issues as Cresselia (plus he can't switch into an electric attack) and Electivire just has crappy typing and I don't need another sweeper. I just can't seem to come up with a replacement for Magnezone that can switch into electric attacks as well as kill/lock out the standard steel walls.

I appreciate the time you took to actually read my wall of text and respond, I'm definitely going to replace Forry at this point and probably Magnezone based on what gets Forretress' spot. Thanks for the advice.

[Diarago]

You're actually very susceptible to an opposing Magnezone. I know, "say it ain't so", but it's true, as he can trap and kill both Scizor and Forretress, he can kill Gyarados, and he can finish off your Magnezone with Hidden Power Fire. Well, that's from the Scarfed Steel Killer, at least.

I'm not going to completely analyze this team, but as this is obviously not a stall team, you do not need Toxic Spikes. It will not last with so much offense, and neither will Forretress. Now, as that's all you'll really do with Forretress anyway, you'll do just fine with just Stealth Rock as an entry hazard. Subsequently, that's a fine opportunity to put in a revenge killer that compensates for the team's common weaknesses with its own specific resistances. For this team, Flygon is an excellent choice, especially when you make him Gyarados' fall guy. Moreover, U-Turning will help Magnezone actually pull some tricks if you plan on it. But, in all honesty, I wouldn't recommend taking the time to do it. You can replace it with something, but there's nothing in particular that you necessarily have to replace it with. Just choose a Pokemon you believe will help the team out. Usually, when a conundrum like that arises, it's a good place to stick in a Mixed Sweeper.

[Von]

Originally Posted by Diarago

You're actually very susceptible to an opposing Magnezone. I know, "say it ain't so", but it's true, as he can trap and kill both Scizor and Forretress, he can kill Gyarados, and he can finish off your Magnezone with Hidden Power Fire. Well, that's from the Scarfed Steel Killer, at least.

Hmm, I hadn't actually noticed what a large hole someone else's Magnezone would tear in my team. Thanks for pointing it out.

I'm not going to completely analyze this team, but as this is obviously not a stall team, you do not need Toxic Spikes. It will not last with so much offense, and neither will Forretress. Now, as that's all you'll really do with Forretress anyway, you'll do just fine with just Stealth Rock as an entry hazard.

Yeah, Forretress is already gone, and I can see what you mean, I don't really need to set up too many entry hazards with a team that's not forcing a whole lot of switches.

Subsequently, that's a fine opportunity to put in a revenge killer that compensates for the team's common weaknesses with its own specific resistances. For this team, Flygon is an excellent choice, especially when you make him Gyarados' fall guy. Moreover, U-Turning will help Magnezone actually pull some tricks if you plan on it. But, in all honesty, I wouldn't recommend taking the time to do it. You can replace it with something, but there's nothing in particular that you necessarily have to replace it with. Just choose a Pokemon you believe will help the team out. Usually, when a conundrum like that arises, it's a good place to stick in a Mixed Sweeper.

Flygon is definitely looking like a great way to replace Forry. His typing/ability do seem to really fit with the rest of my team as well. Plus with 2 pokemon I can freely switch into an Earthquake, those ground weaknesses don't seem so bad.

Edit:

Well here's the planned Flygon, just got to breed/EV train one now.

Flygon @ Choice Band
Levitate
Adamant - 80HP / 252 Atk / 176 Spe
(HP and Spe EVs depend upon IVs, want to reach 280 speed and the remainder will go into HP)
-Earthquake
-Outrage
-Fire Punch
-U-Turn

With the typing on the rest of the team and the attacks they'll attract, I should have no problems finding an opening to switch in Flygon.

Any further advice/opinions are welcome.

[AJ29]

Originally Posted by Von

Before anyone comments I'd like to say; Yes, it's fairly generic. I'd also like to add, I've been using Scizor since GSC, not just 'cause he's picked up Bullet Punch in Platinum.

Also EVs are listed as HP/Atk/Def/Spe/SpA/SpD

Heatran @ Shuca Berry
Flash Fire
Naive 6/0/0/252/252/0
-Stealth Rock
-Fire Blast
-Earth Power
-Explosion

Standard suicide lead, the Shuca berry is to make sure he gets his rocks off (sorry bad joke) and to give me the best chance of being able to keep him around to soak at least one of the fire attacks my team is guaranteed to attract.

Like Ballade said - I guess it could work but it may have a few problems I think Heatran has better options than being a suicide lead.

Forretress @ Shed Shell
Sturdy
Relaxed 252/112/144/0/0/0 w/ Spe IV of 2
-Toxic Spikes
-Gyro Ball
-Rapid Spin
-Explosion

Again, pretty standard set. My spiker/spinner, has explosion for if I cbf dealing with a specific threat, or I'm probably going to die anyway. And Gyro Ball on such a slow Pokemon + STAB actually does some alright damage. Especially to Weavile. Shed Shell is there specifically for Magnezone, but you've already figured that out.

Toxic Spikes have gone into the depths of no-where since they are easily counterable so there's not much point having them. It can work but it just adds to the fire weakness you already have. If Heatran was being used as something other than a suicide lead then it could easily be your fire absorber. I'd say that it's not a good idea to keep it as if you have SRocks down you don't really need Spikes.

Blissey @ Leftovers
Natural Cure
Calm 0/0/252/0/80/176
-Wish
-Softboiled
-Flamethrower
-Toxic

Another fairly standard set. The EV spread here may seem like overkill for SpD, but it allows Bliss to take a Crit from Specs Modest Lucario's Aura Sphere, and makes non-crit a 3HKO. And despite being walled by Heatran completely, and to a lesser extent Empoleon/Tentacruel, Modest Specs FF'd Heatran has to roll almost Maximum damage (twice) to 2HKO, so Bliss is capable of PP stalling Heatran out of it's fire moves. Needless to say Empoleon and Tentacruel aren't getting through. I took Flamethrower (instead of IB/TB) to be a counterpoint to Toxic and to stop Scizor using Bliss as setup bait, it's an acceptable deterrent to Steels it can't poison and stall out.

Exactly what Ballade said. I hate these things they're useless in my opinion.

Scizor @ Life Orb
Technician
Adamant 32/252/0/224/0/0
-Bullet Punch
-Brick Break
-X-Scissor
-Swords Dance

This one's obvious, BP + Technician + STAB + LO becomes a stupidly strong priority attack. 224 Spe makes him fast enough to outspeed Adamant max Spe TTar (discounting 31 Spe IV TTars >.>) and OHKO with a Brick Break, if I haven't had a chance to Dance yet. I know Scizor is walled by Gyarados, but there's not much that can be done about that, without messing up his other coverage.

I'm sorry but this set is too boring and standard. Almost EVERY team has one (Except mine =P) and it is just so common. You could scout its moveset and try to come up with something else a little more creative (If it's actually possible) and try it. If you are set on keeping it it is a good set.


Gyarados @ Leftovers
Intimidate
Adamant 156/108/100/144/0/0
-Waterfall
-Stone Edge
-Dragon Dance
-Taunt

A bulkier spread on Gyarados, his purpose is to switch into a Fire/Fighting attack meant for one of my other Pokemon, (preferably a physical one, but beggars can't be choosers), DDance on the switch that he causes about 50% of the time, then Taunt/KO the Phazer/Counter that switches in. He's usually fairly effective, if pretty common.

I think that this could work. Still watch out for electric.

Magnezone @ Leftovers
Magnet Pull
Modest 172/0/0/84/252/0
-Thunderbolt
-Hidden Power (Ice)
-Substitute
-Magnet Rise

Standard Steel killer, as well as providing some well needed type coverage, and he makes a good cover for Gyarados, being able to switch into any nasty electric attacks. The Spe EVs are enough to outrun 0 Spe Skarmory, and the HP EVs just make him a little healthier.

Like Ballade said Sub and Magnet rise = Useless. Use one or the other. I'd advise Sub and just switch out when a Ground move is fired at you. BoltBeam good coverage and I'd say you could go with Flash Cannon for the 4th slot for another powerful STAB move. HP Fire is better if you want a Steel Killer

Now before anyone points out the stunningly obvious, yes I have a large Fire/Fighting weakness, but it's there to give me an opening to bring in Gyarados, force a switch, and sweep. Though I do think it's possibly a little bit too prevalent. I have been considering ditching Forry for another physically bulky(ish) pokemon that can switch into fire/fighting attacks as well as spike or spin. I've also considered Starmie (can switch into both to a certain extent, can spin and can zap things pretty effectively), Salamence (again can switch into both, though no spinning/spiking and a stealth rock weakness, also I'm SO over Salamence), Latias (can switch into both, avoids spikes, and is bulky, albeit on the special side) and Cresselia (can switch into Fighting and has great defenses). So what I'm asking is essentially, what do you guys think, and are there any pokemon I'm overlooking who could replace Forry easily, or are there any other glaring problems with my team?

Ballade has (Like usual) said it all for me really. Blissey, Foretress and possibly Magnezone want to go and you need to plan type coverage a little better

Originally Posted by Von

Edit:

Well here's the planned Flygon, just got to breed/EV train one now.

Flygon @ Choice Band
Levitate
Adamant - 80HP / 252 Atk / 176 Spe
(HP and Spe EVs depend upon IVs, want to reach 280 speed and the remainder will go into HP)
-Earthquake
-Outrage
-Fire Punch
-U-Turn

Banded Flygon eh? Not seen one of them in a while - usually mixed ones you see. Well it looks like it could do some damage however locking it into Outrage is a perfect chance for Empoleon to come in and freeze it to death. With resisting Outrage it can do this not sure how well but if there's a bulky one it will do little damage to it. Not sure how many you see really most Empoleon are SubAgilityPetaya nowadays common like Defensive Zappy and LO/CB Scizor.

With the typing on the rest of the team and the attacks they'll attract, I should have no problems finding an opening to switch in Flygon.

You have a point but its just how many hits can it take from your fire weakness? Ground is simple but if its constantly switching in on fire it will wear down quickly. You could change the set and give it Roost and mix it up a little.

Any further advice/opinions are welcome.

Well I'd say it's an ok team. You really need to plan your type match-ups more however.

[Von]

Originally Posted by AJ29FF12

Heatran:
Like Ballade said - I guess it could work but it may have a few problems I think Heatran has better options than being a suicide lead.

Yeah, the majority of times I don't actually need to blow him up, so he probably isn't really a suicide lead. He's usually around to switch into a fire attack - or two - explosion is more of a panic button/last resort than a standard tactic. I probably shouldn't really have called him a standard suicide lead. :S

Forretress:
Toxic Spikes have gone into the depths of no-where since they are easily counterable so there's not much point having them. It can work but it just adds to the fire weakness you already have. If Heatran was being used as something other than a suicide lead then it could easily be your fire absorber. I'd say that it's not a good idea to keep it as if you have SRocks down you don't really need Spikes.

Yep, Forry is well and truly out. So are Toxic Spikes.

Blissey:
I hate these things they're useless in my opinion.

May have to agree to disagree with you here, though I do think they become far less useful/potent when people try to build them to take physical hits as well as special. Jack of all trades, Master of none. And all that.

Scizor:
I'm sorry but this set is too boring and standard. Almost EVERY team has one (Except mine =P) and it is just so common. You could scout its moveset and try to come up with something else a little more creative (If it's actually possible) and try it. If you are set on keeping it it is a good set.

I know, I know. But I've been using him since GSC and I'm not stopping now just because he's become really popular. Though his appeal is starting to wane I must say. Using the Bog Standard set because it's also probably his most effective one.

Gyarados:
I think that this could work. Still watch out for electric.

Yeah, Gyarados certainly has his moments. And the electric thing almost goes without saying.

Magnezone:
Like Ballade said Sub and Magnet rise = Useless. Use one or the other. I'd advise Sub and just switch out when a Ground move is fired at you. BoltBeam good coverage and I'd say you could go with Flash Cannon for the 4th slot for another powerful STAB move. HP Fire is better if you want a Steel Killer

Regarding HP Fire, see my response to the previous suggestion to use it. I don't understand why this keeps being suggested tbh. On the Magnet Rise/Sub issue, I have already explained the reason I use them, and I find Steel Attacks to have fairly lacklustre typing. But considering I've had two people now telling me how Magnet Rise + Sub is useless/pointless, I'm almost considering giving him two more attacks and just scarfing him. That would make him nice and standard.

Ballade has (Like usual) said it all for me really. Blissey, Foretress and possibly Magnezone want to go and you need to plan type coverage a little better.

My type coverage seems pretty good to me, however looking over it now, I don't have anything that hits super effective on Ghosts. Though Blissey walls the majority of them pretty effectively, might stick protect on instead of Softboiled to avoid Gengar going boom in my face.

Flygon:
Banded Flygon eh? Not seen one of them in a while - usually mixed ones you see. Well it looks like it could do some damage however locking it into Outrage is a perfect chance for Empoleon to come in and freeze it to death. With resisting Outrage it can do this not sure how well but if there's a bulky one it will do little damage to it. Not sure how many you see really most Empoleon are SubAgilityPetaya nowadays common like Defensive Zappy and LO/CB Scizor.

Yeah, I don't tend to lock pokemon into Outrage before I know enough about the opponents team to work out how risky it will be. Unless I have no choice of course. Choice Flygon is risky, but LO Flygon doesn't pack quite enough of a punch imo.

You have a point but its just how many hits can it take from your fire weakness? Ground is simple but if its constantly switching in on fire it will wear down quickly. You could change the set and give it Roost and mix it up a little.

Not planning on swapping Flygon into fire attacks unless Heatran and Gyarados are both dead. I was more referring to electric attacks on Gyarados and the ground moves Heatran/Magnezone tend to attract.

Well I'd say it's an ok team. You really need to plan your type match-ups more however.

This is why I ask for advice. I'm much better at breeding what I need than actually putting together a team.

[AJ29]

Ah yes I forgot about Flygons electric Resistance how stupid and made other mistakes as usual.... Not thinking before speaking/typing....

I can understand why you want to keep Scizor considering you like it. HP Fire can do less to Steels but with the huge burst of Scizor I believe it is worth a try.

On the Zone thing, you don't have to do what we say really but Zone is too slow really to be able to Sub + Rise it would take attacks which would break the Sub before being able to Rise. Scarf ones are common nowadays (Like everything else. This is why I hate OU and am concerntrating more on UU) There are other options for Zone but I think your one would be a better option. If you want to stick with BoltBeam I could suggest possibly trying a Charge Beam set. I have no idea if it would work and it could be risky but it is worth a try I guess. (Ill probably get slated for saying this mind you =\)


Do you use Shoddy? It is very good for testing out teams before making them. If not then it's worth getting

(Here's a link if you need it.)

[Von]

Originally Posted by AJ29FF12

I can understand why you want to keep Scizor considering you like it. HP Fire can do less to Steels but with the huge burst of Scizor I believe it is worth a try.

I'm just not sure giving up BoltBeam's coverage to handle Scizor/Forry is the best idea is all.

On the Zone thing, you don't have to do what we say really but Zone is too slow really to be able to Sub + Rise it would take attacks which would break the Sub on the same turn as Rising. *Fixed* - But if it's faster than me, I wouldn't have gotten a sub up.

It comes down to, if he's slower, he'll probably die against his counter, but I'm not going to leave him in against a counter if it's faster than him or he has no sub up. If he's faster but I can't OHKO, I sub to scout the attack, if it's ground, I rise, if for some reason I'm using him against something with a fire/fighting attack he comes back in, if the attack is neutral and I still have the advantage, or the attack is NVE, I nuke.

Against Steel types I'm faster than, I sub, then rise if it's a ground attack, then sub again. If they switch, I have a free attack, if they don't, I can avoid status behind the sub and freely kill them.

Yes, I'm well aware of Zone's speed shortcomings, I also know where he stands with the majority of common pokemon/builds that he'll be coming up against. I won't be trying to use Magnet Rise / Sub in concert against things faster than I am. It works really well against Skarm/Zong/Forry though.

Scarf ones are common nowadays (Like everything else. This is why I hate OU and am concerntrating more on UU) There are other options for Zone but I think your one would be a better option. If you want to stick with BoltBeam I could suggest possibly trying a Charge Beam set. I have no idea if it would work and it could be risky but it is worth a try I guess. (Ill probably get slated for saying this mind you =\)

Mmm, I just don't think Charge Beam is strong enough. And with only a 63% chance to boost SpA, I also don't think it's really worth it on something that's going to have to switch as often as Zone tends to be.

I have been seriously considering other options for Zone, and the other build I'm now looking at is the following:

Magnezone @ Choice Specs
Magnet Pull
Timid - 6 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
-Thunderbolt
-HP Grass or Ice (Leaning towards Grass)
-Flash Cannon
-Explosion

With a Timid nature he's fast enough to outspeed Metagross/Scizor on neutral speed natures. And with Stealth Rock support, his Thunderbolt will OHKO Salamence and Scizor. Because his TBolt is so strong, I'm thinking HPGrass would be better than Ice, as it would let me kill Swampert, who's a pretty effective standard Zone counter. Flash Cannon is just another STAB (Zone has a pretty boring moveset) and would be a better option against TTar than TBolt or HP Grass. And Explosion is there so he can go out with a bang. I considered a neutral Atk nature, to make explosion more effective, but that might make him harder to switch in.

Do you use Shoddy? It is very good for testing out teams before making them. If not then it's worth getting

(Here's a link if you need it.)

Yeah, I've got Shoddy, though I don't use it very often. I probably should though, it's easier to find battles than on WiFi.

I'm interested in opinions on the Magnezone remake, except for ones that tell me to use HP Fire. Unless there really is some magical reason to use it that I'm just not seeing.

[AJ29]

Originally Posted by Von

Yeah, I've got Shoddy, though I don't use it very often. I probably should though, it's easier to find battles than on WiFi.

I'm interested in opinions on the Magnezone remake, except for ones that tell me to use HP Fire. Unless there really is some magical reason to use it that I'm just not seeing.

Well HP Grass is useful for Swampert which can get annoying especially considering there's no Grass on your team. I would say it is more useful for you to have it over HP Fire.